24 Comments Family & de facto law, financial agreements, consent orders
Robb a difficult time for everyone. No you cannot refuse to provide support for your children.
Yes it is good to have the weekend off and even better to have it off with the children, this is the time that lasting bonds are built. It is possible to do things with the kids at the time they are with you that are meaningful to you and the kids, that do not cost an arm and a leg.
Nothing stopping you for asking for a change in access times, but think about this, it could backfire. We receive many questions from fathers about there former wife refusing or trying to reduce access a few years down the track when they meet a new chap and their financial position improves. It may be better if you don't provide the ammunition for this by asking for a reduction now.
Remember, it is the kids right to have access and support from both parents and building those bonds will certainly pay off for you and the kids as they get older.
Others will probably chip in with ideas of things that you could do with the kids and ways to handle the lawyers demands.
It may help if you could tell us the ages of the children.
Thank you for reply.
Yes I am still paying more than required child support as well as school text books , school photos , uniforms , sports , dental. As well as $151 weekly out of school sport. Sorry I was talking about settlement.
We have twins 8 and 10 yr old.
I see them every weekend. But she wants half school holidays. Which I can do. But I need to work at least one weekend a month because I need funds to pay for 6 weeks off and work requires me to work at least one weekend per month which I hv not done for over a year now. And because I paying for all of the above.
I need parental plan done due to ex changing times all the time. Sometimes she will not take them back in Sunday because she is tired or she has ran out of money. Last school holidays she told kids Iâ€™m taking them away from her 16 weeks because she canâ€™t afford them. And because I will not settle
What everyoneâ€™s thoughts please. Help me
Parenting & financials are separate issues... Yes I agree that you should seek to formalise children's matters first as that can have a bearing on financials... Insist on it.
Pay only your assessed amount of child support. If you want to pay for extras, school stuff etc, buy these items yourself. DO NOT give the extra to her to buy these things...
If you want some degree of certainty around child arrangements, then you need court orders ... Insist on CONSENT ORDERS regarding parenting, a parenting plan is not legally enforceable & there are no consequences for reneging on it...
[QUOTE=Robb] Ok. What are consent orders. ? What if she does not agree to one weeknd off per month. How will consent orders be decided ? [/QUOTE]
Consent orders are a way of formalising an agreement without going to court.... Obviously both parties need to agree on how long the kids spend with each parent & when etc..
Mediation can help both parents reach an agreement. At that point it's often a good idea to see a solicitor & have the orders written in a clear precise manner to minimise the chances of misunderstandings... The consent orders are then filed with the court for approval & stamping..
See this link for more info How do I apply for Consent Orders?
I canâ€™t. Thatâ€™s what Iâ€™m saying. Ex wants half school holidays which is great. But for me to have 6 weeks off a year I need to work at least one weekend a month to fund this. As well as work requires me to work some weekends. I do not have family or friends. And kids donâ€™t like being babysat at this stage.
I am already leaving work early every Thursday and Friday to pick kids up. And Iâ€™m starting work later on some Mondays when she refuses to take them back.
If youv'e tried mediation & can't agree, then consent orders are not for you at this point... In that case the mediator will issue you with a s60I certificate that will allow you to file for parenting orders with the court...
If you are being mucked around, then I recommend filing ASAP... Seek some workable interim orders in your application... Interim orders if granted are temporary court orders that are legally enforceable, until final orders are made...
Interim orders if granted are temporary court orders that are legally enforceable, until final orders are made...
oh thanks for that as I needed a laugh. 123849 25453 23139 2019-05-16 20:07:33 False 22.214.171.124 False Is someone able to point me in the right direction.
17 year old son, in year 12, I pay child support and school fees and is doing reasonable well at school.
Today I recieved a letter from csa regarding my ex wife who I haven't spoken to in about 5 years. Submitted receipts for tutoring fees of $90 per a week and is wanting csa to collect. I never agreed to tutoring fees and first I knew about it was when i received the letter from csa. Didn't even know my son was having tutoring. Should I have to pay these.
Any help 123850 25454 28456 2019-05-17 08:50:24 False 126.96.36.199 False
The short answer is no you shouldn't be expected to pay for any extras over & above your assessed amount that you were not consulted on & agreed to..
That said, if your child is benefiting from tutoring & you are able to afford 50% of the cost, it wouldn't be such a bad thing to help out... The assessment will end at 18 years old after all.
123851 25454 9971 2019-05-17 14:22:37 True 188.8.131.52 False [QUOTE=whatplanetisthis] Interim orders if granted are temporary court orders that are legally enforceable, until final orders are made...
oh thanks for that as I needed a laugh.[/QUOTE]
Having read some of your posts over the years, I'm glad to return the favour... LOL
Oh Iâ€™m so sorry. Iâ€™m little confused. I hv s60i.
So what is difference between interim orders and consent orders.
Especially for my situation. Ex will not agree.
Iâ€™m going for more time. every 2 nd weekend.
Thursday after school to Monday drop off school.
Thursday after school to drop off Friday 8 pm. They spurt finished 7 pm. And I drop off kids after ex finished work at 8 pm.
Half School holidays
Ex will say no. Cause of loss of csa money.
Currently j hv then every Thursday arvo. Drop off 8:30 pm. And every Friday tomsunday arvo 2 pm. If she decides to take then back.
Consent orders are for when you agree on terms. If you don't currently agree then use your s60I certificate to apply for final orders. In that application you can also seek interim orders.
As already explained. Interim orders are enforceable court orders that are put in place until either you come to an agreement & enter into consent orders, or a judge hands down orders.
The final & interim orders that you seek in your application should be what YOU are seeking & can manage whether the other party agrees with them or not. It will be up to the court to decide if the inter you are seeking will be granted. Whether they are granted depends a lot on how practical they are in the circumstances, SO.. make sure what you are seeking us what YOU can manage
When you make an application for final & interim orders, she will be served a copy & have an opportunity to either agree with the times you are proposing, or put in her own proposal.... Child support is not administered by the court if CSA can do it, so child support DOE'S NOT come into the parenting order application...
When the court has handed down interim orders, both parties are expected to abide by those orders... Sometimes that doesn't happen. In that case, you need to keep a record of the breaches, times & dates... If they are often enough, you could seek an application in a case to amend the interim order..
I suggest initially that you seek what days & times YOU can manage, & see what her response is after she is served... If her proposal is also manageable & acceptable for you, then perhaps go with that... If you do actually agree at that point, then you could enter into final consent orders then rather than having interim & final orders later...
But, first things first... Make your application & file it ASAP, see what her response is & go from there... Once these things become a court process, it tends to focus the mind of all parties & they are told from the outset that they should be making genuine efforts to find an agreeable, workable solution...
Your Child support is set according to income & how often you have the kids... You shouldn't be falling victim to blackmail tactics to pay more in exchange for that... If she is frequently refusing to take kids back unless you also pay her, I would be telling CSA. If it is a regular thing, then it could potentially alter your CS liability to less...
If her refusing to take kids back is causing psychological distress to the kids, then that is another matter... There are agencies that this can be reported to but that would depend on how often this happens, & how distressing it is for the kids..
Ok thank you for you reply and clearing this up.
I have contacted csa and explained situation about refusing kids in exchange for money and she said there is nothing they can do about it. They just explained what child support is for and I only need to pay set amount.
I told my lawyer and they said nothing I can do. ??
I am 100% certain she will disagree with my interim orders due to my proposed arrangement will reduce her csa payments. And she will state she is happy with current arrangements as it only suits her not the kids. I also made it so less interaction with ex in front of the kids at drop offs as she is now approaching my vehicle again and refuses to leave unless I give her answers she wants. She stands between me and the car door and will not allow me to shut the door when I ask her to leave. Lawyers send her letter adv her not to approach vehicle at drop offs and not be be abusive otherwise avo will be looked into
This stopped her for about a month. But now restarted again !! In front of kids.
Are all these episodes factored into consideration as to why I want to change from every weekend from Friday to Sunday 2 pm to every 2 nd Thursday to Monday school drop off ?
Who to report her to?
You have 2 options.
2. The cops. They might apply for an avo on your behalf. BUT.... BUT that might be more trouble than it is worth.
Mate she is a porkchop. Nothing you can do is gonna change that. So what to do?
In the interim, suck it up. Be calm, be methodical. Don't engage with her stupidity. Some amatur psychological advice. Plan around her antics. Stay calm. Don't let her see that she is getting to you.
She isn't gonna agree to your proposed schedule. But a court is likely to. The courts care about best interests of the kids. NOT HER welfare / child support payments.
The days of dad gettting every second weekend and half holidays are long gone. Infact the legislation states that a magistrate MUST consider 50/50 care. That definately does not mean that 50/50 is common BUT what you're asking for is reasonable. It has the added bonus of minimising contact with the ex because you'll be doing pick up's and drop off's from school, so the ex can't mess you around.
Apply to court asap. You're right, your ex is not likely to agree to anything. Not right now anyways. But when she gets served with the court attendance the gravity of the situation will kick in.
Final thought - solicitors are funny creatures. Their brain resides partially in their wallet. Many of the questions you've had answered her could have come from your solicitor. I do think by now you really should have applied to court for interim orders. But why hasn't your solicitor told you this? good question... Well everytime your solicitor writes to the ex the solicitor gets paid. So the longer this drags on the wealthier your solicitor gets....
Nope - one more thought... Only about 5% of cases go to a final hearing. That means a full trial. Most cases get sorted by agreement. Sometimes outside the court just minutes before the magistrate does his job... WHY? Well the fear of having some person telling a parent what is gonna happen to the kids suxs. Right now, your ex basically tells you what to do and you just have to suck it up..... But when that power gets taken out of HER hands and put into a sane / rationale person's hands.... Well your ex isn't gonna like that. She won't be the boss anymore.
Call your solicitor on Monday morning and ask him to file the paperwork for court. Yes it will cost a few grand but by the sounds of things you're losing similar sort of $$$ because of her antics, at least this way this nonsense will eventually come to an end when you get court orders.
emca01 2019-05-19 07:47:44
Awesome thank you for your time and great reply.
Yes Iâ€™m so disappointed the lawyer has not adv me to go to court or at least started the process earlier !!!!â€™ Itâ€™s put a lot of mental stress on me. Def agree care arrangements are on her terms and whatever she says I have to do. Which is interfering with my work and I have no time to myself to realign myself and sort this out properly.
Iâ€™m in the middle of writing email to lawyer. Adv my care arrangements but do I include the reasons why I want to change ? Do I provide evidence of work requiring me to work some weekends and dc Cert saying anxiety etc is not good due to working so much to pay for kids child support etc. and having kids when Iâ€™m not working so she can rest etc.
I adv lawyer I want to go to court. She said she will start application.
How long do I give her to submit application. 1 week ?
Settlement ; I just provided last of my finiancials. However I adv I do not want to pursue settlement until parental orders are done. Is this fair and reasonable.
She refused to pay for car that I have been paying for repayments and insurance 16 months. I had to stop in January due to lack of funds. The car got repossessed however my parents paid out the car hoping ex would change her mind so she can hv car back for the kids!!! But now The car is in their garage waiting on ex for answer. She is still refusing to pay for car out of sale from house but still wants car back. I just want to sell it. She had so many chances. The letter of offer was sent out 2 week ago. And still no answer about the car. How do I speed things up with car and pay my parents back ? Itâ€™s due for rego 4 weeks.
keep communication to soliciotor brief. They will read everything, charge you for reading it and use very little.
So all you need is background. When you met, when you married, children's DOB and what has been happening since separation... You then want to explain what you want. 5 a fortnight and half holidays. What you're asking for is reasonable
You might as well ask for parenting orders and asset division orders at the same time. Don't do anything to help the ex. Pay child support. Nothing else. Don't offer her the car.
I have contacted csa and explained situation about refusing kids in exchange for money and she said there is nothing they can do about it. They just explained what child support is for and I only need to pay set amount. Establish a pt tern that you can present to CSA [/QUOTE]
So only pay the set amount as they say... However, if you the children are in your care for xx number of extra nights on a regular basis because of her refusal to take them, then your care % should be altered to reflect that... In essence she needs to know that her refusal to take kids will not result in you caving in & giving her the extra money she demands, but that it will eventually result in less Child support for her... SO, keep a record of extra time they are in your care over & above your assessed care amount
[QUOTE=Robb] I am 100% certain she will disagree with my interim orders due to my proposed arrangement will reduce her csa payments. And she will state she is happy with current arrangements as it only suits her not the kids. [/QUOTE]
Put in your proposed times regardless & see what happens... as I said, a court process & her official response to an application can focus the mind & make it all that much more real
[QUOTE=Robb] I also made it so less interaction with ex in front of the kids at drop offs as she is now approaching my vehicle again and refuses to leave unless I give her answers she wants. She stands between me and the car door and will not allow me to shut the door when I ask her to leave. Lawyers send her letter adv her not to approach vehicle at drop offs and not be be abusive otherwise avo will be looked into
This stopped her for about a month. But now restarted again !! In front of kids.[/QUOTE]
So if it is continuing go to a local court & apply for an AVO... The conditions of which clearly state what you wish & the consequences of breaching the order..
While there is some merit in you 'sucking' up this behavior yourself to deny her the pleasure of seeing how it affects you, & you may have the emotional strength & character to endure it, children do not, nor are they expected to... If it's a regular occurrence, DO NOT HESITATE to seek an AVO to have it stopped, she has already be warned of the potential of it by solicitor letter after all
Ok. Thank you again. Email has been sent last night regarding proposed orders and Breuer reason why. Lawyer already has our background when I asked this to go to court over 2 months ago !!!!
What if ex claims she is unable to have kids every 2 nd weekend due to her supposably working ??? I know her work is flexible as she has regular weekends off to go to races and away with her friends etc
What are assets division orders please ?
What does avo involve. Do we both have to go to court, can it be done at the same time ?
What if ex claims she is unable to have kids every 2 nd weekend due to her supposably working ??? I know her work is flexible as she has regular weekends off to go to races and away with her friends etc [/QUOTE]
If in her response she is proposing every weekend & you are just not able to do that, then it will be up to the court to decide.... much more likely that an interim order would be made for alternate weekends then the kids spending time with one parent EVERY weekend. That way both parents are sharing the load so to speak
[QUOTE=Robb]What are assets division orders please ? [/QUOTE]
Property settlement...This link will help fill you in, or google it. Heaps of info online
How do I apply for property and financial orders?
[QUOTE=Robb]What does avo involve. Do we both have to go to court, can it be done at the same time ? [/QUOTE]
As I said, go to the LOCAL court in your area to apply.. They will explain the procedure... If an interim order is granted, it will be served on her & she will be compelled by law to adhere to it under threat of criminal charges if she breaches it... She will be given an opportunity to front court to accept or oppose the interim order. You don't need to be present.. If she accepts it, okay, if she opposes it a date for a hearing will be set, BUT, the interim order remains in force, so same effect..
The point is, she will have o pull her horns in when it comes to approaching your vehicle at changeovers & carrying on in front of the children especially..
Ok great thank you again. I am really considering avo now.
I have adv lawyer yesterday to make application for interim orders ASAP and to be submitted by the end of the week. I emailed proposed orders of every 2 nd weekend from pick up school to drop off and every Thursdays with brief description of why.
HOWEVER lawyer told me in her reply to go to court for property as well !!! And attached copy of the application??!!!
Letter of offer, giving her 82% , was emailed to her lawyer giving her 21 days to respond which is this Friday.
The car she was driving was repossessed due to me paying car repayments and insurance for over 12 months. However she does not want to pay for car out from the sale of the house. my parents bought it back in case ex changed her mind for sake of the kids. She still does not want to pay for car from sale of the house. She wants me to pay for it out of my share ( spousal maintenance !!!) I am so cranky itâ€™s got this far. The car is now in my parents garage and rego runs out in 3 weeks. I do not see the point in spending even more money on going to court for this. I just want to sell the car and get rid of it not spend more money on lawyers fees for court. By the time debts are paid ( incl substainal tax debt she was not paying for our business) there is not much left over.
Iâ€™m thinking she accepts her 82% share or she can take me to court at her costs. Itâ€™s cost me to date over $30000 for nothing. Most of that was organising financial disclosure., and lawyers asking for more statements , super statements , tax statements etc. being called into useless appointment and still NO parental orders. Which I asked for over 8 months ago.!!!
Ex still has not provided her disclosure !
Should I go against lawyers adv and do the following
can I state to only parental orders only , no property orders ?
Ex can take me to court if she does not accept 82 % ( only leaves me $8000) I do. Of want to spend more money on pointless emails Etc costing me $42 just for lawyer to read !!!
Can I just sell car ? Pay my parents back ?
No reason you can't include financial & parenting in the same application... BUT... The priority for you is parenting orders & in particular interim parenting orders... If doing both applications together IS GOING TO DELAY FILING, (possibly needing detailed financial statements & the like) then I would be instructing the solicitor to file parenting & interim order application ASAP, no delay...
You will need an affidavit in support of why you are seeking interim orders... You should set out the inconsistent behavior that is continuing regarding her refusal to accept kids back & how it is affecting the kids & your work..
See what comes of the letter of offer, but insist that your parenting & interim orders gets completed & filed ASAP....
Also don't know what state you are in, but the link below on how to apply for an AVO would be a similar process across the country...
Applying for an Apprehended Violence Order
Have a read & see if the circumstances warrant it, if they do, then seriously consider it because once served with court papers, the behavior may escalate..