Joined: 26/August/2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 1
Posted: 26/August/2008 at 13:20
Hi there
Sunanda Creagh here, I am a journalist with the Sydney Morning Herald. I want to do a story about this group and am very interested to hear from anyone who has been fined by Australian National Car Parks or has challenged their fine.
If you are interested in speaking to me for the story, please call asap on 9282 3252 or email screagh@smh.com.au
Joined: 13/September/2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 1
Posted: 13/September/2008 at 17:34
On Thursday a family member went to buy a few items from Campsie Woolworths on having returned to the car which was parked in the Woolworths car park he had received a fine from ANCP, this was a shock to him as he didn't understand why, It's so unfair that innocent people have to go through all this worry, we intend not to pay these rats & we are't shopping at Woolsworth anymore as they are teamed with ANCP. we have been in communication with the consumer action law centre. I think It would be a great idea if we all mobilize and made a common challenge to ANCP.
Joined: 09/January/2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 592
Posted: 13/September/2008 at 18:01
I have not read all posts on this thread. Now I am not legally trained..however these car park companies MUST be operating under some state/federal law. The question is...which ones? When this is determined..then the next question is...are they operating strictly to these laws? Please remember that state laws PREVAIL.....and these companies must comply with them.
Joined: 13/January/2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1
Posted: 13/January/2009 at 20:44
They will no doubt claim that their liquidated damages is a genuine pre-estimate of their loss taking into account the inability to enter into contract with another customer, (because you are parked in the space), the time to issue the payment notice, having a field officer patrol the car park and administration involved in issuing a payment notice.
It should be remembered that they have chosen not to install boom gates to ensure correct payment of parking fees, but have instead opted to use a patrolling person to monitor compliance with the contract. That being the case then they have incurred the cost of the patrolling person, geared to issue notices for a breach of contract, regardless of whether there is a breach of contract or not. i.e. if everyone paid their fees, then they would still have the cost of the patrolling person. Therefore the cost of the person to monitor contract compliance needs to be covered from the normal parking fees, and consequently their only valid pre-estimate of loss can be the loss of the car parking fee, plus a nominal amount to chase you up, say $0.50 for the stamp, $0.20 for the envelope, and say $3.00 to issue a standard letter, plus the hourly rate pro-rata’d for the parking space.
Joined: 20/January/2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1
Posted: 20/January/2009 at 23:53
one other thing i would like to mention is that. they 'parking instructions' state to park your care, then read the terms and conditions. then if you do not agree to leave the car park. It does not state to remove your car also, as you of course would have already parked your car to get out and read the terms and conditions. just something i noticed, not entirely sure of the implications. i also have a photo of this.
I've got a few letters too. i worked near there and intended to use their 'flat rate' fee. but the credit card machine never worked.... (wonder why) and those times that i didn't have coins i thought 'ok ill go back to work and buy a coffee and come back in 2 hours to use the coin machine. but i got caught nup in work and forgot a few times.
Joined: 07/March/2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 15
Posted: 09/March/2009 at 12:08
You guys are lucky – Care Park is ONLY at your local shopping center. These guys look to start managing my personal residential (car park on my title) car park. I found signs in the car park, lifts and a notice under my door. I have Googled Care Park and lets just say they do not have a good name in the media or with consumer groups.
My case is equivalent to Care Park threatening to demand payment of liquidated damages for breach of contract for your car parked in your dive way or garage.
Joined: 10/March/2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1
Posted: 10/March/2009 at 14:14
Not sure if there is anyone qualified to provide a legal opinion on this, but I wonder whether the simple answer to rejecting the breach of contract claim is to advise that you (as the registered owner of the vehicle) are not responsible for the breach of contract as you were not driving the vehicle at the time the breach occurred. I noticed on the Consumer affairs vic site that this is one of the issues the CAV raised with ANCP - that unlike a fine (which the vehicle owner is liable) the breach of contract is with the driver of the vehicle. If I cannot recall who was driving the vehicle at the time, or are not prepared to divulge their details, what recource does ANCP have?
Joined: 07/March/2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 15
Posted: 11/March/2009 at 10:06
I spoke to Consumer Affairs Victoria today and they are very interested in talking to anyone who has had dealings with Care Park as they are currently under investigation. Consumer Affairs Victoria are currently investigating their business practices.
Joined: 01/April/2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1
Posted: 01/April/2009 at 14:30
hi All;
I am like most of you the victim of Woolworths car park hefty fine of $88 in February which I refused to pay.
I did contact Council which was of no help. They apparently have taken ANCP to supreme court and i was told they have the right to operate like they are now!!!
I also spoke to an employee which was asked to write a letter and explain my circumstances and i did so . I received a letter today from them ( a standard reply)as you all know rejecting my claim and that i have to pay within 14 days. I am wondering if I should take it up with Media. As this rip-off will be going on and some one should do something for the public to put a stop on their dodgy practice.
Joined: 02/April/2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1
Posted: 02/April/2009 at 10:53
I recieved a ANCP $66 fine from McDonalds at Stanmore in sydney - did not see the sign on the way in and the machine view was blocked by a van - 10 minutes and 2 cheesburgers later $66! Didnt see it unitll i got home but was disgusted. Took no action when i relaised 2 things
1. all they have is my rego number
2. RTA cannot give out my details - check the privacy laws on the RTA website ( unless ordered by a court)
My recomendation - do not contact ANCP - once they have your details thats it - also BOYCOTT any place that does this absolute theiving rort that i woudl be happy to take to court before i pay anything - blatent stealing and if is is not illegal it should be
Joined: 04/April/2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1
Posted: 04/April/2009 at 16:38
I too was caught by this money hungry organizational. As being from out of state, I had no idea that you had to pay, or collect a ticket for free parking. My questions and observations are this. Once you drive past the ticket machine, your effectively entering into the contract, but how do you turn around? There is no safe environment to achieve this with out putting your life, your property, or the lives and properties at risk. Considering that you must also read the signage, to be able to read all the fine print, and the part that even free parking a ticket must be displayed, how is one meant to achieve this without causing a public safety problem. If i was to read all the points of this supposed contract, it would take me at least a few minutes, now if every driver did this, it would spill onto the public roads and become a public nuisance and a risk to public safety.
There are many points of law that can be quoted under the trades practices act Section 51AA for example, and contractual law that prohibits and makes this act illegal. I say protest. sadly there are not a lot of ways to do this, except read the fine print, no matter how many people are honking their horn, I am sure that when this matter becomes a hazard to public safety that the local government department will then become involved. This is a serious issue, not only for the money, and the underhanded way this money hungry entity is going about its business, but also a public safety issue.
I also have a major problem with the format of the tickets. I am a security officer, under the law it is illegal for me to wear a uniform, or pieces of uniform that may indicate I am a police officer and not a security officer, should there not be the same rules when issuing pieces of litter like this. How many of you thought that this was a legal infringement notice, issued by a council? How many of you questioned the legitimacy of this paper before paying? I would be surprised that many of us did. Not until I arrived home did I sit down and read this, to find the fine print on the ticket. The other objection I have is who is issuing these tickets and touching and violating my private property. As a male, I love my car, its the only possession I own out right, and to have some underpaid person, touching it, and vital pieces of the equipment of the car, ie, the windscreen wipers I find abhorrent. Who pays for the damages if this underpaid monkey breaks it? ME.
Who employs this person? is it a contractor who drives around all the carparks? Is it a person specifically employed for this purpose? If it is one person, would it not make more sense to have him at the front of the entry? Worse still what if is the guard inside. As a previous shop owner, I would be disgusted, if the company hired by the center is out there revenue raising instead of being inside, doing his job, being a presence.
Joined: 05/April/2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1
Posted: 05/April/2009 at 10:16
I was recently issued a parking infringement notice by a council (or someone acting on their behalf) when I had a valid ticket. It was a 'pay and display system' where I did display the ticket, but it MAY have blown off the dashboard when I went back to the car to take something off the back seat. I sent a letter with a copy of the valid ticket but received the expected reply - pay up.
My question is, what law have I broken when I did in fact pay for the parking (and did display the ticket, even if it wasn't still on the dashboard when the inspector viewed my car)?
I have seen conflicting info on whether costs can be awarded if I chose to fight it in court. The Magistrates Court Act (Victoria) states that if the issue is of less than $500 that costs cannot be awarded. But I have seen info on other sites that even states the actual dollar amount that will be awarded against me at various stages if I don't pay the fine.
I was just issued a "notice of intention to sue" in the mail on Friday May 22 from "Australian National Car Parks Pty Ltd". The letter does not say what offence occurred - just the following:
Payment notice: ******
Amount: $88.00
Date Issued: 4/7/2008 ~~ (10 months ago)
Location: Chaucer Street Car Park St. Kilda
Registration: ****** (it was a hire car from Europcar)
I am unsure as to how to go about contesting this letter - as I can't even figure out what it's for, I never received any form of ticket and I paid and displayed - I was the coach on a sporting tour so I have 7 witnesses too...
I found the companies phone number - (02) 9660-3100 online and gave them a call to enquire about what the fee was for and if they could explain why I am only receiving this notice now - not 10 months ago. THE MAN HUNG UP ON ME!!! So, I called again, and HE HUNG UP ON ME AGAIN!
If anyone has any similar stories or can advise on what they have/have not done about this - I would be extremely appreciative!
My Mum received a very large "notice of intention to sue" from these bastards for a car drive that is registered in her name. We sought legal advice and also contacted the Consumer Action Law Centre (the CALC) to find out what the result was of a court action they undertook.
Our lawyers argreed with the advice here that these are not legal fines and they would have to sue to obtain any damages and these are not likely to be much.
The CALC summarised a person's options nicely for us.
-------
With regard to your fine from the car park we note that our advice has not changed for some time. Please refer to our notes below.
We note that the CALC ‘test’ case settled on confidential terms and we cannot disclose the outcome of that matter.
However, we note that IF you are pursued by a car park, our experience is that consumers that file in VCAT on this issue have their matter resolved prior to a hearing date. VCAT template pleadings are attached for your reference.
Consumers who are being pursued for payment of ‘liquidated damages’ in respect of failure to abide by the terms of operation of private car parks, have four options:
1. Do nothing. IF you do nothing and do NOT write and provide your personal contact details to the Private Car Park Operator then arguably they may be in breach of the Privacy Act by trying to retrieve those details from VIC Roads or elsewhere, without your consent. We know they have already done this successfully as they have send you their notice!
2. Continue to do nothing. While we are aware that some companies have issued proceedings against individuals, there is a chance that the operators are merely threatening to sue, and may not actually take legal action to recover the alleged debts. However, we cannot be sure. If you were to be sued, it would be most likely in the Magistrates’ Court, and in that event we would be well disposed towards providing assistance in defending the matter. However, you must be advised that, IF proceedings are issued in the Magistrates’ Court, you will be liable for legal costs in the event that they have judgment entered against you. Additionally, IF a judgment is obtained it will be entered on your credit report held with Veda Advantage or Dun & Bradstreet, which will affect your creditworthiness.
3. Issue in VCAT. If consumers want to get on the front foot and protect their position, they can issue proceedings in VCAT (obviously you will be volunteering your personal contact details to the Car Park Operator by doing this). We have a template VCAT application which we can provide to consumers who wish to take this step. This ensures that the matter is litigated in a cost-free jurisdiction, but has the disadvantage of denying the consumers the opportunity to take advantage of the possibility that they will in fact never be sued.
4. Pay the debt. If you want to ensure that you are not facing any risks of legal proceedings or an adverse credit report, you should pay the amount demanded of them in full. Alternatively, a consumer could offer a partial payment by way of full and final settlement – eg, a cheque for an amount you are happy with. If you wish to pursue this course of action you must state clearly in a letter (again volunteering your personal contact details) to the company that acceptance of the sum proffered constitutes full and final settlement of this dispute. If the operator refuses to accept the compromised settlement, the consumer always has the option of finalising the matter by paying the remaining balance of the full amount owing, or proceeding in VCAT.
In addition to the three options above, you are encouraged to draft a letter of complaint to the Director of Consumer Affairs, care of:
Director of Consumer Affairs
Consumer Affairs Victoria
GPO Box 123
Melbourne 3001
-and also draft a letter of complaint to your local Council, and the shopping centre management (if any).
Again if you choose to do so you would be volunteering your personal contact details which the organisations may pass onto the Car Park Operator, thereby providing them the opportunity to pursue you.
Finally we refer you to our fact sheet and template letter available on our website.
We also have template pleadings available for VCAT proceedings should you wish to take that course of action – attached.
We note that IF you are pursued by a car park, our experience is that consumers that file in VCAT on this issue have their matter resolved prior to a hearing date.
I received a notice of intention to sue, nearly a year since the date of issue. The offence happened on the 14th of June 2008!!!!
I have no idea how they obtained my address as this is certainly not a fine issued by the RTA. Is it just the RTA that can give out this information or can they obtain this from anywhere else?
As soon as I saw the Notice of Intention to Sue....it scared the crap out of me and I was going to pay it, went on to their website and the website looks so amateur, I made up a fake "Ticket Number" and it went through to the page for me to fill in my credit car details..... so I dont even know how they actually track this because I assumed if I entered the correct ticket number, it would bring up the details associated with the fine, ie. my name, address, date of offence etc. however this just proceeded to taking the credit card details. I thought this wasnt quite right, so i did some searching around on google and stumbled across this page, I had no idea so many ppl had been affected.
Joined: 18/January/2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 16
Posted: 09/June/2009 at 00:11
All of these care park companies have one major problem. They don't know who they allowed to park in their place. All they have is a car rego number. They have no idea who drove the car. There is no hope in hell that a car owner is liable for anything. The only person who could possible be liable, even if there is a valid contract, is the driver. The only way they will know who drove the car is if the driver dobs himself in by writing a letter to complain about the fine.
There might be a segment on Today Tonight this evening about a parking company in Tasmania that is placing fines on cars that park in its car parks when someone fails to buy a ticket from their ticket machine. The fines are several times the cost of a day's parking.
The company allegedly is obtaining the offending car owners' names and addresses from the government's registration records, and it seems the company is chasing the registered owner of the cars for payment of these "fines", some of which amount to thousands of dollars.
There is a serious problem here with the government disclosing people's private information to a company that is too stingy to employ a person to manage its car parks and obtain payment from people at the gate. The car park owner is trying to get its customers to pay for the service it provides. This is a civil law problem and has nothing to do with traffic law or criminal law or parking infringement notices issued pursuant to Part 7 of the Road Safety Act or its regulations. Many people don't realise this and mistakenly believe that a private company can issue its own fines and enforce them in a court.
Firstly, even if the person who parked the car in the car park has entered into a contract with the car company (which is uncertain) the contract can not lawfully claim a sum that is greater than the reasonable loss suffered by the claimant as a result of the breach of contract. So if the fine is a penalty, it is unenforceable in court.
Secondly, if there is a contract with the person who parked the car, it is no use chasing the registered owner of the vehicle. The registered owner is not a party to any contract and can not be liable for the debt. The carpark company needs to know the identity of the driver. The government is wrong to disclose the owner's details when the owner has committed no offence and can not be liable for any claims. The owner is irrelevant and his/her/its details should not be disclosed.
If you go to a private car park that requires you to buy a ticket or else you will receive a penalty, the penalty is usually not enforceable in court. If you as the registered owner get a letter demanding payment of any amount for your car being parked in a private car park, all you need to to do is ignore the letter and they will probably go away. Or if you feel a burning desire to tell them to get stuffed then also tell them that they should send their demand to the driver of the vehicle, not the registered owner. These companies operate by cutting costs (not employing staff on the ground) and intimidating people into paying up under threat of bogus legal claims. If the car park company is brave enough (or stupid enough) to issue proceedings against a car owner, the owner should get legal advice rather than pay any of the amount claimed.
Infringement Notices issued by authorised people on private property are enforceable if the car park has an agreement with the local council for the local council to issue fines under s.90A Road Safety Act. In such a case the car park will need to have all the usual parking restriction signs in place and the fines issued by a council inspector. As an example, many private shopping centres (e.g. Eastland, Highpoint West) have agreements for local councils to patrol and enforce their parking lots.
If you park a motor vehicle in a private car park, and the car park operator issues a ticket to the vehicle by placing an "infringement notice" on the window, there is no way that either the driver or the owner of the vehicle can be held liable by any court for the amount demanded by the car park operator unless the driver admits to the operator his or her identity and admits to parking the vehicle in the car park. In the absence of any evidence of who the driver was, the car park operator has no case and the best thing for the owner and driver to do is to ignore the infringement notice.
If the operator of the car park sends a written demand to the owner of the motor vehicle, the owner should respond with a letter along the lines of: "I am the owner of motor vehicle ABC123 and have received your demand for payment of a car parking penalty which appears to have been sent to me in error. Perhaps you should send your demand for payment to the person who you invited to park in your car park. I am unable to provide any further assistance."
I have received a notice of intention to sue from ANCP for Barkly Square Shopping Centre. The notice was for over a year ago and the date for it to be paid by before i received it. I have since received a notice from debt recovery also after the date I needed to have the original notice paid by to avoid legal proceedings. As far as I am aware my car has never been parked at Barkly Square Shopping Centre. I live and work over 100 kilometres away and I have sent an email to ANCP letting them know I think they have made a mistake. I thought the whole thing was a set up and I was going to take it to the police to have it investigated. I couldn't believe it when I saw the extent of this forum. I also would like to know how I can be fined when I can prove I was at work that day. How can they be allowed to send out a notice so long after the event that the owner of the car would not be able to remember if someone else drove their car that day. As it is I have asked the only two people who may have driven my car and neither of them have ever been to Brunswick - we had to google the car park to find out where it was. I am not paying the notice - it doesn't say it is a parking fine or an infringement notice. I will keep you posted as to what happens.
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