Car park fine

What is so hard and/or mysterious about having to get a ticket and display it on your dashboard?? 

Perhaps you should hand in your drivers licence

here2help - excellent comments.  I would also like to add that I have been through the process of receiving a "payment notice" and disputing it with ANCP.

The piece of paper with the "payment notice and tax invoice for claim of liquidated damages" they placed on my window goes to great lengths to imitate a valid ticket from a government agency that actually has authority to issue a "fine".  The format is almost identical, and the standard terms modified subtely so that if the reader does not have sufficient legal knowledge they will not realise it is a request for payment by a private company, not a demand by a legitimate government authority.

When I disputed the claim I was threatened with legal action. I am lucky to know how pathetic their position is, but many others simply give ANCP their hard earned money without understanding their rights. Note that they have not issued a "FINE" or a "PENALTY".

You or I can write a "claim for liquidated damages" and give it to a person at any time. It means nothing unless we go through the exhaustive court process and will get rejected if it does not have a legitimate legal basis for compensation and the amount of the damages can be justified. Id like to see ANCP justify how my 90 mins of parking inflicted $88 in damages, when its free anyway!! 

So ANCP has intentionally set up a convoluted process to trap well intentioned people, and then misleads them into thinking they must hand over $88. big.greg I hope you now find this as utterly outrageous as I do.

Canterbury council is receiving legal advice to determine whether ANCP should repay all of the money they received under this process. Refer p7:

http://www.canterbury.nsw.gov.au/resources/doxents/omin270 7.pdf

I personally believe that ANCP's conduct is unconscionable and therefore in breach of s51AA of the Trade Practices Act. I pointed this out them in my letter and enjoyed threatening to take them to court on this basis if they proceed with action against me.  Please read the link below:

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/303748/fro mItemId/3669

The key point is that the Trade Practices Act is breached in any commercial situation where "the stronger party allows the weaker party to rely on an incorrect assumption, or fails to disclose an important fact", or where "the weaker party is unable to understand the deal, due to lack of experience or professional advice" etc.

I will update if I do get taken to court, but it has been 5 months now and no court notice has been received (not surprising). Unlike real fines from government  bodies, they cannot prevent my car from being registered, or have police pull me over for having "unpaid fines". Their "payment notice" is just a piece of paper unless a court decides in their favour, which I believe is extremely doubtful.

Edited by matt1974

Greetings All

Very amusing reading. I am acting on behalf of my mum who is 75 and really upset with ANCP. We have not contacted the company or written a letter yet, but I have sent through an email here2help, so please check your hotmail.

The signs appear to be the biggest problem here, particularly if you enter from the left as only one side of the sign displays ANCP info which is tiny in comparison to the Woolworths Customer Parking sign and can't be viewed when you turn into the carpark because it is on the passenger side of the car. There is also a conflicting sign issued by Woolworths which only states a 2 hour limit. (p.s. I have taken photos just incase they decide to change these signs and are reading this forum!!)

Anyway. We are going to seek more legal advice, but I am more than happy to help with your crusade. I have already spoken to Darebin Council in Vic, Morris Iemma's office (he is the member for Lakemba which includes Campsie), Woolworths Customer Service, the RTA's Freedom of Information staff and Canterbury Council. We are about to lodge our official complaint with the Department of Fair Trading.

As for you little Greg, best to keep your nose out of other peoples business!

I've also been fined by ANCP at Barkly Square and very keen to dispute the 'fine'.  Very keen to hear further experiences that anyone has in terms of their success in doing this.

ANCP have moved to Queensland and I have just received one of these notices requesting $66-$88. I regularly shop at Paddington Woolworths and get one of the 'free' parking tickets and put on my dashboard. I completely understand the reasons shopping centres implement these systems but it's ANCP's outrageous 'fines' for small indiscretions that I can not comprehend. It can only be about Profiteering.

This weekend I dropped in to check to see if the hairdresser in the centre was open to take my 4 year old for a hair cut. Anyone with a 4 year old can understand how distracting one can be, especially when complaining about not wanting a haircut, needless to say I simply 'forget' about the ticket. The hairdresser was full, so I picked up some bread and milk. When returning to my car I realised I'd failed to get a ticket when spotting the 'notice' on my windscreen. $88 wtf!! I'd be happy to pay the money for the 15 minutes I was there, I accept I forgot the ticket but $88!! Even $66 within 14 days, HOW can I have caused that much 'liquidated damages' for using this shopping centre car park in it's intended way?

I believe if ANCP were to 'request' a minimal fee (say 2 hours at the correct parking fee) for a customers forgetfulness, that the customer would pay for their indiscretion... but $66-$88 for parking 15mins during a 2 hour 'free parking' time is outrageous and highly disproportional.

Not to mention that the 'parking attendant' failed to actually tick which 'Contractual Term or Condition' I failed to adhere to?

Of the four choices...

1. The vehicle did not display a valid ticket or pass.

2. The ticket or pass displayed had expired.

3. The vehicle was parked in a loading zone/ reserved bay.

4. other...

NONE where ticked, or had any indication of what I'd not adhered to.

Does this make the ticket invalid anyhow?

Edited by Brissy

I actually ended up sending them four letters, before an ambiguous response was received. The last letter, contained a rejection of a previous letter but then also a small slip saying "thank you for payment" or something along those lines. I presume it's withdrawn due to the accompanying slip and I haven't received any additional word since.

I would argue that the letter from the consumer action website is not necessarily your best bet. Essentially they rejected that letter by me, as incorrect and simply a pro-rata form. However, I would've got it withdrawn as a result of sending them a digital copy of the shopping receipt - I spoke with the manager and he told me it would be withdrawn for first time offenders, who had a docket (legitimate customer).

Also, the case pertaining to the RTA does not give ANCP a common law basis for an actual claim for payment. As far as I know, the the Supreme Court ruling was only on whether ANCP had the power to obtain addresses from the RTA - albeit, I didn't actually look up the case on lexisnexus since mine was resolved. In addition, any case that is actually taken to court will ultimately depend on the cirxstances - for my parents there were no visible signs around in there area, which on that basis alone should rule out Offer & Acceptance as part of contract law. Do keep in mine that there is obviously lots and lots of case law about parking fines already - though the landmark case was about one with boom gates, which inherently changes the conditions.

The other thing is, I remember from my research when I was still disputing the matter that there was a news article saying that ANCP had only taken two cases to court and subsequently withdrew them just prior to the hearing.

I would suggest that everyone who does have a problem, lodge a complaint with the department of fair trading. With that said, don't expect the person on the other end to be any help, the assistance I was rendered was of a lower standard than self-googling. What the point of lodging a complaint with the fair trading is that; the company is already under investigation by fair trading, so adding a few more complaints doesn't hurt. I actually lodge submissions to a current affairs and today tonight and sun rise too, media pressure is always nice - seeing as I didn't want other people in the same predicament.

Also, the last time I spoke with Canterbury Council I was told they would not step into the matter as it was private property. They did bring this issue up in council meetings, but the minutes from those show that the issue was brought up years ago and resolved.

Very bad luck today to receive a piece of paper from this Australian National Car Parks Pty Ltd in Campsie Woolworth. I will reject to pay any coin to this notorious company.

First, I have a valid ticket just 1 minute after they issue that piece of paper;
Second, I am a real shooping customer with my shopping doxent and bank record;

Just ready to lodge a complaint to this company before I found this forum. So can anyone tell me if I should muck arount with this company?  Hope more perople can see this forum. It is really unfair to issue a fine to a real customer. That will hurt Woolies customer and woolies itself definetely.

We should probably not ignore their requests for payment.. the purpose of a letter of demand, irrespective of prompting a resolution of the dispute without the necessity of litigation, is to protect ANCP's position as to costs. So by failing to respond to them, you're allowing them to to receive a costs order in their favour should they win. It stops you from arguing that you would have complied had you been asked..

I think I might send them a letter, without providing my details - I might just supply their ticket number, and advise them that their cause of action will fail. Their signage is no where near the entrance. I have taken photos and will argue case law to prove it. In the end, it's the principal of the matter and I intend to fight it all the way and have it set as a precedent. They can put cameras in place and a boom gate, like every other car park does, which then becomes fair to everyone.

 

I just recently copped a fine for the same thing for parking without a ticket at Campsie Woolworths. I was about to pay the actually fine but something told me to google the company first. So here I m stuck in the same situation with most of you. I ve sent them countless letters and to no avail they want me to pay my fine.

Spoke to Legalaid for advice and they werent really helpful either. They told me to visit a local office and speak to them but I wish I had the time to do that if only they were open on Saturday and Sunday.

looks like the only way to solve this is going to court.

Anyone with any new update? would love to hear from you.

I recently received a 'payment notice' along the lines of those listed here. Unlike some of them, mine stated the terms 'liquidated damages'. I am now in the process of drafting a letter based on the template found on this forum. There are a few key points i will state in the letter as follows:

There is a distinction made between 'fines' and 'liquidated damages' in that there is no requirement that the plantiff (ANCP) prove loss or damage for liquidated damages, and recovery of compensation is facilitated. However, courts will not allow the parties to fix a sum which is substantially greater than could have been estimated at the time of the contract as adequate compensation. Thus the $66/$88 will have to be shown to be proven as adequate compensation for '...occupation by your vehicle of the relevant car parking space precluded us from entering into any other contract for the use of that space...'

Also, as others have pointed out, 'ANCP's conduct is unconscionable and therefore in breach of s51AA of the Trade Practices Act'.

I will update when I receive a response.