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Overnight Care for young children

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JAJKP2012 View Drop Down
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  Quote JAJKP2012 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Overnight Care for young children
    Posted: 29/April/2014 at 09:19
Hi

Some interesting developments that should hopefully lead to a review of policy in the news today:

http://www.smh.com.au/national/about-us/movement-on-fathers-overnight-access-20140428-zr0z2.html

and the full paper can be read here:

SOCIAL SCI ENCE AND PARENTING PLANS FOR YOUNG CHILDREN

Regards

Bobby

EDIT... To make links clickable



Edited by jaazzz - 06/May/2014 at 00:05

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  Quote jaazzz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29/April/2014 at 09:41

Thanks Bobby... Good work.

So folks, get to writing letters to your members of parliament & keep it up.


Any opinion given should not be accepted as legal advice.

Please post your legal questions in a forum rather than sending a PM. Thanks

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  Quote emca01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29/April/2014 at 11:27
Many thanks Bobby. I hope some time soon the legislators can see how two things need to happen.
1. Shared parenting should be the norm (where the non-primary carer wants to be actively involved in their kids life.) Sadly some parents choose to walk away, but sometimes they walk away because the system exhuasts them. More sadly, their time is limited because of conflict between the parents.
2. The Child Support Agency and Centrelink can find a way to make their systems work. I am sure there are plenty of primary carers whose motivation in depriving the children more time with the other parent is a financial imperative. If we can take the financial imperative as a motivation away we just might find fewer disputes about how much time kids get to spend with each parent...
cheers
eamon

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  Quote JAJKP2012 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29/April/2014 at 14:30
There is another article, Empty Days, Lonely Nights' in todays copy of The Age, which resonates with my own personal situation as my Son is 18 months old and I see him for around 6 hours per week, 9 if I can negotiate it. It is not enough for him.

Whilst I enjoy every second I spend with him, I'm of the opinion that, where the non-residing parent shows willingness and ability, the residential parent should in fact support and encourage active involvement in all aspects of daily care for the child(ren), to include overnight care.

My ex and I were offered the opportunity to discuss our situation with experts on Jennifer Mcintosh's research while we attended mediation.

I agreed (without ever having read any of here work on shared parenting, overnight stays for infants etc) because at the time I thought it would be best to take any advice and support available. My ex refused, suggesting she would have to 'review' the research before agreeing to anything.

Mediation ended soon after.

Now of course, having read the research, my ex quotes it regularly when I attempt to negotiate more time with our Son, suggesting that he will suffer emotional instability, separation anxiety etc.

So I am simply ignored, and have to resort to enlisting the expensive help of a solicitor, so you can bet I'm going to be making sure the lawyer is bang up to date with the most recent research available.

It is refreshing to see that scholars of particular significance in the field have published this work today, and I know the federal Government have the intention to review the Family Law Act in respect to shared parenting.

I agree Jazz, now is a good time to lobby our local members of parliament and inform local authorities, judges, solicitors and parents that perhaps the current legislations serves as an injustice to our children, and that we as a society can do better.

Regards

Bobby

Edited by JAJKP2012 - 29/April/2014 at 14:33

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  Quote rannii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29/April/2014 at 19:30
Hi Bobby,

Hearing your story makes me so frustrated with the so called legal system. Unfortunately the system seems to reward those who don’t deserve it.

I hate, hate the fact that I do need face at point in time I will have to spend nights away from my children. I do not agree with 50:50 (time) parenting needing to be the norm either.

However this is based on my perceptions and values. I cannot foresee myself wanting to return to work full time for a long time if I can manage it. 3 days a week suits me. So if 50:50 (time) is the norm, would it be fair on the children to be in daycare for the additional 2 days a week while they are with their fathers. If the father doesn’t finish work until after 6pm & the children are generally in bed at 6.30pm is that fair on them?   Or would 5 / 14 work?

You see your son for 6 hours a week. My ex, sees both our children for a lot more (on the proviso that he doesn’t need to feed them, or put them to sleep). He doesn’t see that ‘caring’ for them is what they need. Instead its evenings out at the local pub (too late at night to go anywhere else), Weekends are inner city museums, theme parks etc. I am sure my baby gets a lot out of the art gallery & so does my toddler.
In my care they take days to get over the sleep. But on our good days, the baby loves crawling around, getting into things and annoying the crap out of the toddler. My toddler enjoys kicking the ball around the backyard, hiding in cubbies we create under the table . . . basically they are thriving at home in their own adventure world.

Oh, I have bottles sent back to me dirty, the kids are returned with soiled clothes. I’m requested to put them with sunscreen etc. Basically I’m packing them up for a very bad daycare service.

I took the McIntosh report to be that 50:50 (care) should be exactly that. Both parents bathe the children, cook for the children, comfort them when they are crying etc. I’ve seen first hand how kids need that more than the Disney land stuff to bond. (my family was alienated from my 1st chid. However, I needed to lean of them when he left & I needed to go to hospital to have the second, the relationship my 1st child has with my family is now strong.)   I believe that in my case overnights with the father would be detrimental to the children - however, if he took the time to take on the parental roles (like my family did), I see that it would only provide additional and special time with the dad.
I had a brief read of the article, and it was talking about number of hours a child spends with the child/ren. If I was to work, then I pick up the children at 5pm – made rush to dinner, bath and bed. I maybe see them for 30 mins.   Meanwhile my ex gets 2 hours between 6 – 8 (baby and toddler) 2 a week – automatically he spends 4 hours compared to my 90 mins.   On top of that he has them for 4 hours each Saturday (remember no feeding them or putting them to sleep), so they come home very exhausted, tired. My afternoon is guggling 2 grumpy children & then bed is about 5pm - no quality time with them there.   Every second Sunday he has the whole day – 8 + hours.
I can only see that this type of article will be applied to the wrong people. Ie my ex will get 50:50 (time) and my children will miss out on being kids & people who are wanting to be as much of a parent as possible will be overlooked, or actually see the implications that it has on the children and agree to a lessor amount.

Your paragraph is a paramount . . . . but sadly I don’t think any merit will ever be given to it.

“Whilst I enjoy every second I spend with him, I'm of the opinion that, where the non-residing parent shows willingness and ability, the residential parent should in fact support and encourage active involvement in all aspects of daily care for the child(ren), to include overnight care.”


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  Quote JAJKP2012 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29/April/2014 at 21:43
Hi Ranni

Well I'd have to disagree with your last point, merit can be given to my statement at the political. judicial and individual level, but that ultimately depends on cooperation between both parents; in how they conduct themselves towards one another, as much as the parenting side of things.

Easier said than done though right?!

Despite my best efforts I know there will still be arguments, I also know I'll stand my ground and work towards spending quality time with my child throughout his life until adulthood. My ex for sure knows that I'll never give up attempting to spend time with our Son, and he of course will know when he is older, because I'll be there, all being well.

I think the 50:50 thing is taken a bit too literally really and having read this article in full I can see that the focus perhaps should not be on 50:50 care per se, its more that each parent's role is equally important for the child's healthy development, and that any policy ought to advocate the promotion of both parents having a meaningful relationship with their child - which means they should be responsible for the day to day care of the child too.

I am finding often that if I stop worrying about the things I am unable to change and remove the emotion from certain tense situations, then generally I react better, think clearer and the little one is going to be much better off, not to mention my ex, and me too of course.

There will always be challenges over the next 18 years+, and I'm learning every day.

Regards

Bobby

Edited by JAJKP2012 - 29/April/2014 at 21:44

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  Quote emca01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29/April/2014 at 21:47
Rannii, et al,

I am keen to see where the wonderful and intelligent folks how post her take this.

For my 2 bob's worth I reckon from 18months any dad (and lets face it, generally it is dads...) who shows an indisputable desire to nurture their child should be given that opportunity.

Jazz has mentioned lobbying the politicians. I feel our energies could best be spent lobbying for family law to be taken out of the hands of solicitors. For the money I've spent on solicitors in what is still an adversarial system, I could have had a child psychologist spend a night with me and my then 12 month old and that psychologist can make a value judgement based on their education and their experience of me with my kids. Give any parent who is sincere about being actively involved with their kids a chance to show they can do it and do it well and let experts in child development make the call NOT magistrates. And let the same experts see parents like Ranni's ex who thinks it is ok to expect to spend time with kids, but not feed, bathe or put sunscreen on them be judged by child psychologists not magistrates for their conduct. I reckon he'll fail. But more importantly it will take out the fact that HE (and lets face it in many situations it is the male who is still in the workforce) who can afford the best barrister wins. But also the average income earner cant afford the costs of the legal battle.

Lets deal with the fact that mums like Ranni hate the idea of being away from their kids by offering some counselling to help them deal with the grief that might cause by helping them to understand that dads matter (maybe not in your particular case Rannii btw) But in cases where dad really can and wants to fall asleep with little one in his bed or in a cot beside his bed and do the stuff that parenting is about.

Ranni wrote "I can only see that this type of article will be applied to the wrong people" here is hoping that she is wrong and it will be applied to the right people with the right support and as a result of a judgement made by a psychologist NOT a magistrate to ensure it will be applied in the right circumstances.

Final thought. Divorce doesn't have to hurt kids (much) conflict does. So why have a system where it is my lawyer VS your lawyer??
cheers
eamon

Edited by emca01 - 29/April/2014 at 21:49

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  Quote rannii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29/April/2014 at 22:30
Hey bobby,   

I do think we are actually on the same page. That is, you appear to want to be caring for your child and therefore should be granted that considerable time. On this basis, I don't see overnights are distressing or traumatic for the child.

Also your comment does allude that you are thinking beyond "your" rights to what suits the child best. It's this type of thinking that does make me think a closer to 50:50 (time) would work.

But I'm jaded. Look at what appears to be your attitude and concerns re the child. Look how little time you have.   Now my ex (has children 5 nights a fortnight and won't bathe them) and the time he gets awarded through the courts. Surely to has to piss you off???

Now extrapolate this further. You are taking the attitude of taking what you can get and making the most of it (and yes, wanting to change the situation), your child is well adapted. Statistically your child one whose parents are pushing for equal time, but adapting fantastically in unequal time.   Meanwhile, I've this ex who has been award 50:50 (awake time) causing havoc and my child are statistically in the pile that are NOT coping. Im guessing my case has a better chance of making the potential "reports" than yours due to the conflict ensuring it doesn't fly under the radar.


I don't think the start basis should be from either parents point of view - but rather from the child's. I'm yet to see that happening.   

A lot of my peers actually have stay at home dads. I am aware that it's not just mothers that can look after children effectively. And my focus is on infants - which I believe needs a greater focus on how both parents can met the needs rather than how does a child fit into 50:50 (time) split.

And yes I do agree there needs to be a different focus on how CSA is calculate to stop those manipulating the system. But also how to minimise the agro between parties.

I see my ex taking on more responsibility with the children is so he doesn't have to pay me as much child support. Granted he might reduce this payment by $100 a week (enabling me to earn more than that), but his out of pocket day care expenses is $85 per child per day - so he would be paying more than that to a day care centre.   Realistically I'm the winner in that senario (financially), as I can earn more. He loses more money without seeing the kids at all. The kids lose out by being placed in care when they could have been with a parent.

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  Quote JAJKP2012 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30/April/2014 at 09:20

Nice idea Eamon, too much money to be made out of Family Law for any radical changes in the area I suspect, although there may be room for the Government to fund additional support services, psychological support and the like.

Ranni,

I think a lot of these issues come down to accountability, by which I mean that while the children are in the care of your ex, it will be his responsibility to attend to feeding, bathing and all the rest, and he must be held to account for that. That goes both ways.

There are many ways to voice your concerns in a reasonable way, and have your concerns documented (e.g. GP, Maternal Nurse, School Nurse). If patterns develop and are sustained, which are detrimental to the welfare of your children, and there is a verifiable record of documented professional evidence, things will get noticed and may lead to a change in circumstances.

I'm in a different situation to you, not as far down the track, so I can't offer much as I'll be dealing with the court process soon too and I don't know what the outcome will be.

Regards

Bobby





Edited by JAJKP2012 - 30/April/2014 at 09:21

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  Quote whatplanetisthis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30/April/2014 at 11:15
My god !! I'm shocked, teary-eyed, happy & nearly convinced these dudes have direct linked into my brain & drawn out the near exact statements & arguments for why so much frustration & mind numbing inequality that at times has near pushed me over the edge.Such is the resultant feeling that becomes inevitable when forced to listen to an unbalanced mother whom is "seeking to continue to facilitate a relationship between our child & the father ".Who then through fantasy & invention places threats of trespass, protected person status,speaker phone calls which petered out to no phone calls,rejection of skype contact or paternal grans supervision.Add to a belief of no need for dad to know of change of kindy then school,no birthday or fathers day aknowledgment, refusal to give school details to send me reports/photos. Having no telepathic abilities myself it's as frustrating as hell & of course a loving bond has been affected.Can only hope this is a start of some long needed change to a playing field that can be too easily manipulated , potentially damaging a child .Any genuine,caring dad whos been labelled & treated as such a non relevant parent & who obviously know that assumption is wrong......the times are a changin' brother's !!!!! Link it,send it, recite it, print it but keep it rolling as it's that simple if your good dad in your heart our kids need us.

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  Quote emca01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30/April/2014 at 14:32
Ok I was trying to withold my excitement. BUT whatplanetisthis, your post has made me want to sing it from the treetops I'm a man and a dad and I'm proud. Dang I really dont know how to speel allellua (mmm looks close???)
cheers
eamon

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  Quote rannii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30/April/2014 at 21:04
Hi guys,

I am currently doing a parenting course (only single parent), interesting one of the questions was raised, it is normal for a child to gravitate to a single parent (2 year old). Apparently it is part of a developmental phase.

I do see this in my childhood (both parents together til I was 14), but also in my kids. I haven't read the entirety of the article yet, but what I did read was kids can handle overnights with grandparents etc & they are fine with that.

I guess what I am asking is what age do you think its appropriate for 50:50 care to start? I am assuming a week about arrangement? How does BF'ing come into this?    Note, I am not advocating for NO overnights. But as a mother I do agree that week about (7 on and 7 off) is not best for the below preschool group.

Interestingly, I found a male perspective of suggested times with kids (trying to work out what to propose at court). . . .

http://emeryondivorce.com/parenting_plans.php#infants

thoughts??

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  Quote jaazzz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30/April/2014 at 21:16

Hi all... I share your enthusiasm Eamon & others..

I have never been comfortable with the views expressed by McIntosh regarding overnights of children under 5 with 'non primary carers' (predominantly fathers) & the way in which her conclusions have been generally accepted in Aust as almost gospel.

It's refreshing, no liberating, to be able to now have a study that challenges the Aust report & goes into detail to explain how & why it's flawed.... eg

QUOTE... Multiple problems exist in the design, procedures, data xysis, data reporting, and interpretation of results of the McIntosh et al. (2010) study (Cashmore & Parkinson, 2011; Lamb, 2012b; Ludolph, 2012; Nielsen, 2013c in press ; Parkinson & Cashmore, 2011).

These are the type of problems that can affect the admissibility and weight of the study when proffered as evidence in custody litigation. They include observations such as the following:

• The report’s synopsis (McIntosh et al, 2010, p. 9) selectively presented what the
authors interpreted as negative outcomes attributed to overnights, but ignored the more numerous findings that showed no statistically significant differences attributed to overnights or that showed benefits of overnights (for a discussion of this cherry picking strategy, see Johnston, 2007).

McIntosh has been criticized for ignoring opposing viewpoints when she selected theorists to interview who support the concept of an attachment hierarchy, for a journal issue that she edited, and excluded those whose views challenge this position (Lamb, 2012; Ludolph, 2012). She then gave a skewed summary of viewpoints that selectively excluded conflicting information and created a false impression of consensus.... ENDQUOTE   And it goes on

For those that are interested, type McIntosh into the search field of your reader to easily find all the references to her Aust report

Another interesting read from Warshak can be found here >>
The Primary Parent Presumption: Primarily Meaningless

   
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  Quote emca01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/May/2014 at 05:08
Hi Rannii to answer your question about overnight care from a male perspective. I'd use a very rough methodology BUT it needs to be prefaced by saying there needs to be good parenting skills by the non-primary carer because it is very difficult to go from day time contact to overnight. Daunting infact.

I also agree about your comments regarding kids bonding. I'm having a bit of grief at the minute with 3yr old. He is showing a reluctance to get out of the car when it is time to come with me and the ex is loving it... 5yr old boy was the exact opposite. In fact for a while there he was trying to lock himself in the car when it was time to go to mum AND hiding to avoid getting in the car in the first place. oh dear.

My rough plan.
1 night a week from when the child is 1. BUT probably towards the latter stages of that year, so maybe when the child is 18mths. In a dream world dad would feel confident to ask for some clothing that belonged to the mum because the child can get comfort from the smell (it used to work for me with the older two kids when they were young and I still lived with her) OR that the mum provide what ever assistance is asked to support settling the child, such the routines she does. That helps everyone, the dad and keeps the kid in the same routine...
2 nights a week from the time the kid is 2 but again towards the end of that year so when the child is 2 1/2...

In an ideal world the overnight care would be connected to extended day time care. In short dad is taking a day off work a week...

From the age of 5 I reckon 5 a fortnight and by 7 it should be 50/50 Whether week about or 3 nights one week and 4 nights the next. BUT of course it depends on a whole lota other factors such as how realistic it is in the real world. I know I am lucky because my workplace is directly across the road from the primary school my kids attend and my work is flexible around school hours.

I reckon there needs to be a revision of what is meant by family friendly work places. BUT I have some crazy ideas such as non primary carers being given extra annual leave paid by the govt so they can supervise their kids for 1/2 school holidays. Based on what the prime minister was proposing for maternity leave, worth thinking about....
cheers
eamon

How does BF'ing come into this?

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  Quote rannii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/May/2014 at 05:54
Hi eamon,

Re bf'ing, your thoughts on overnight - no issue.

It's the push for having a week arrangement from a couple months old. Even if a mother could express enough initially, the absence of child would greatly diminish mothers supply: I don't believe regular extended (2 + consecutive nights) based on this factor alone is beneficial for for the child.


Re your comment for non custodial parent to be able to facilitate 1/2 holidays. Don't agree based on equality. In 2 parent family, not enough annual leave to cover all holidays between both parents.

When mums working full time as with dads, what basis do you support that? And in a 50:50 arrangement who is non custodial. Current (govt) parental leave is for either parent. 18 weeks primary and 2 for secondary.

Also the major point behind Jennifer mcintosh reports that I've seen. Is equal responsibility. That dads shouldn't just have weekends and 1/2 holidays. That secondary parents should be able to partake in EVERY facet of a child's life. And ironically (IMO) through this the bond builds where overnights are easily manageable by the children.

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  Quote emca01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/May/2014 at 06:55
I guess my thoughts on holiday leave could be applicable to both parents when separation happens. But where one parent works and the other doesn't work or works part time then there are some problems from the perspective of the non-primary carer. 1/2 all school holidays is more leave than the average employee is entitled to.

I now live in a world as a teacher where I never assume kids are living together with mum and dad. Given that almost as many kids come from split homes as don't then maybe govt policies need to address that and one way that this has not happened has been provisions for non-custodial parents. That said a push towards greater involvement for non-custodial parents is the biggest issue, stuff like holiday leave is another. I guess what I'm getting at is that I still feel that it is seen as more of a problem when I take leave to take kids to doctors or what ever than when a female work mate takes leave for family. The traditional perspective of women/mums still exists in my workplace.

To answer your Q in 50/50 arrangement there is no ONE custodial parent. BUT sadly 50/50 should only happen when the parents can work together. So in some respects I have to accept that 50/50 might not be in the best interests of the kids IN MY CASE because of the conflict. What hurts about that is the primary carer really is the cause of the conflict, so she gets rewarded with more time with kids, simply because effective co-parenting cant happen with her. DANG.

Just a thought??? Once kids are old enough for week about in holidays, then clearly their is no issue with separation anxiety or any of that stuff, so why not have 50/50 year round???
cheers
eamon

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  Quote rannii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/May/2014 at 07:58
Hi Buddy,

I know we’ve gone off “law” to more of the social aspect…..but hey, I think gaining a perspective of the others sides view might actually lead down a path of slowly help. So, in that spirit, I’m going to pick apart your latest offering.

School Holiday Provision.
I agree its tough.   Try having a conversation as a mother with boss regarding time taken off when child starts daycare and is sick for more than allocated personal leave days – and then going onto unpaid leave. And that was while I was coupled.   Times by 2 kiddies, and then school holidays, my ability to hold down any job & then throw in career?? No wonder they glass ceiling is still in place.

Also, why should your half of the holidays off work, when even in a typical (working) family, they don’t have enough leave to cover ALL holidays. If you are expecting your ex OH not to use care, shouldn’t you be prepared to offer up more $$$ to compensate for their lack of earning capacity due to your expectations?

Re government policies.   Maybe it shouldn’t be so easy to “just leave” when the going gets tough. How many self help books have a read that its normal to fall in and out of love you’re your partner.   Maybe having to have a reasonable attempt to keep the family together would be easy.   My ex walked out when he figured he couldn’t cope with a baby. His child support is a lot less than what we were paying in Daycare fees. Win. He thinks he can threaten me with the automatic right to 50:50 (time) care, so I would relent and give him the access that suits him. Oh, and he doesn’t have to take holidays or lose pay to look after the children.   How something like that would work when safety issues arise, I don’t know.

I accept that in your case, the primary parent is causing the conflict - but how does that work in cases like mine, where he is the one doing it. Where he seems to be pushing the buttons to either reduce his court time, or make it seem like Im your ex to increase time to the point of removing the kids out of my care completely?

3 Comments re “Once kids are old enough for week about in holidays, then clearly their is no issue with separation anxiety or any of that stuff, so why not have 50/50 year round???”

First, why is contact only 50/50 in holidays? If due to location, there is a reason why it cannot be sustained all year round.

Second, if there is no reason, why does secondary parent only initially want holidays? Part of being a parent is getting kids up for Care/School, going to work for a full day, come back cranky yourself to cranky kids. That’s what I believe is the bain of McIntosh’s work – treat each day as equal and ensure BOTH parents are PARENTING.

Third,   ever had a holiday when you need to have a holiday from to recover. Unfortunately its human nature to make the most of limited time when you have it. Hence “Disney land dads” – kids up to adventures 24/7. In my case kids up to high energy stuff on 7 days of the fortnight. They are shattered back in my care. Dad goes on a marathon effort aware he can recover in non kid times (doesn’t have school runs etc).   That brings back to point 2.

My view is, forget holidays. Split time into weekend/week days. Lets see how secondary parent goes with one weekend night first, then one weekend + weekday, and then slowly progress things like that. Enable secondary parent as much CARE as possible, as much RESPONSIBILTY as possible. See how the kids are coping, and the secondary parent and adjust from there to what works best for all parties.

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  Quote Daisy5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/May/2014 at 09:37
Just wanted to point out that the paper referred to at the start of this thread is not a new piece of research. It is a literature review that draws on various other research to present a view that is then supported by many experts. I dare say McIntosh could produce a similar report with the endorsement of her supporters. This is a contentious issue with interest groups on both sides.

There is a real lack of useful research in the field of overnight infant care in situations were parents are separated.

Many people have criticised McIntosh's work but many of those who criticise her have yet to publish their own original research.

JAJKP2012 View Drop Down
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  Quote JAJKP2012 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/May/2014 at 11:38
Hi Daisy5

I agree, it is indeed a contentious issue, much over politicised both by individuals/groups with their interests (vested, or otherwise), and also by the good old media.

However, I'd suggest that while the article does present as quite damning of Mcintosh's approach and presentation in her work on the subject, it is possible that, had other avenues been considered within her work, then this particular literature review may not have been deemed necessary by the author.

A literature review conducted at the level that it has been in this case, and endorsed by so many scholars in the field, carries quite significant value, and may encourage other academics to conduct further research in the near future.

I don't really view the article by Warshak as being highly critical to the extent of a witch-hunt against Mcintosh, rather as a concise and well formulated review, which it seems was the intention. Mcintosh has indeed acknowledged as much and I understand is on the verge of releasing another paper to add to the discussion.

What I have taken from the paper is that while certain aspects of classic research in regards to attachment theory (e.g. Bowlby) were given great consideration in the work of Mcintosh, the work of those who held differing classic opinions (e.g. Rutter) was largely ignored. Also, the methodology and sample sizes raise some questions. But that is not to say that Mcintosh's work holds no value, its just questioning the validity of the research, and its associated implementation in to Government policy.

So while I agree that much much more research is required, the significance and relevance of literature reviews, in particular, detailed reviews such as this one, cannot be understated.

This is true in the fields of healthcare, social sciences, the environment, and so on.

Regards

Bobby

Edited by JAJKP2012 - 01/May/2014 at 11:45

emca01 View Drop Down
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  Quote emca01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/May/2014 at 14:34
Look I don't think this new report is really anything new. It is a bit like when the 2006 reforms happened. Blokes interpreted "shared parental responsibility" as 50/50. Some feminist groups cried foul that it would lead to more women staying in violent relationships in order to protect the kids from 50/50. blah blah.

I think McIntosh is often mis-quoted. From what I understand she wansn't entirely opposed to 50/50 BUT her work focused on the problems with very young kids. Somehow she has become the voice of opposition to 50/50. I don't think that was ever her intention.


Rannii, I sometimes think that you express a concern about having the kids in care. Yep if your ex chooses to spend money to put the kids in care during his time, oh well his choice. I pick my kids up from pre-school once a fortnight. They are happy and clearly enjoy the social interactions. Soon enough the kids will be at school. My ex has the kids in care 2 days a week. She thinks I should pay half the fees. (oh dear another can of worms) I told her I'd pay 1/2 the fees IF she agreed for me to have the kids 1/2 the time. I also offered to take a day off work a week to look after the kids. Her gripe with that was that me working less will impact on child support. I suppose ultimately what none of us can really account for is that each circumstance is different. Rannii you clearly are prepared to work and have studied for the purpose. My ex doesn't work and while she complains she cant work because she has the kids, my offers to take the kids more are rejected. Cant win.... oops, became a bit of a rant, still recovering from getting yelled at this morning when I dropt off the kids. BUT my point was child care isn't a bad thing and a necessity in an era where a single income family is hard work, let alone a single person trying to raise kids and keep a job...

Ranni asked
shouldn’t you be prepared to offer up more $$$ to compensate for their lack of earning capacity due to your expectations? The answer is yes and I think the system works ok in this regard. The less time I spend with my kids the more money I have to pay in child support to assist the other parent to do so. The good people at the CSA work out what it costs to keep the kids based on a really complex forumula that a poor simple English teacher like me will never understand.

Yep I used to think it would be better to make separation harder, but nope, my marriage was abusive. I'm glad it is over. I tried really hard and I do think most people go into marriage with an expectation they'll stick together. I have read somewhere that when marriages end in Australia, in 70% of cases it is the woman who ends it. If that is true then maybe that is where govt money and attention to divorce rates should be spent because 70% is disproportionately high. True??


Ranni Wrote
I accept that in your case, the primary parent is causing the conflict - but how does that work in cases like mine, where he is the one doing it. Where he seems to be pushing the buttons to either reduce his court time, or make it seem like Im your ex to increase time to the point of removing the kids out of my care completely? Your case is incomplete, I hope you get a positive result in the end. But as far as conflict goes there is a case that I will try and find where the dad became the primary carer because the mum was causing conflict. In the court orders it stipulates that IF the mother complies with the orders (in short stops being a twit) then within 2yrs it would be 50/50 shared care. My point being that difficult parents CAN get a negative response in court, BUT still this mother managed to score shared care, better than I would have expected in my case even with me being Mr nice guy...

IN answer to your question about holidays and location. IF 50/50 can work in holidays then there are no problems with parent/child relationship. Yep location can matter, but again that comes down to individual circumstance. In my case my orders stipulate no relocation beyond 50km. In rural areas 50km is nothing, I drive 50km to work and it takes 35min. I fought to have that put in the orders to stop the ex moving from here to there on a whim and each move would impact on me the kids and my job. I know my ex would up and move because she is a drifter. I also know that I would follow her. So how disruptive to everyone. But it gives her all sorts of power, I have to live where she wants??? Is that fair? NO. Is it fair that her freedom to live where she wants is restricted? NO. But she can leave, just not with the kids. OOPS side tracked again. Yes location can make 50/50 unworkable, but how cruel WHEN one parent chooses to relocate with the resulting impact on the other parent...and yes what if the non-primary carer chooses to move? well same applies - expect to spend less time with the kids...

Rannii wrote...
Second, if there is no reason, why does secondary parent only initially want holidays? Again each case is different. In my experience it is simply I'll take what ever I can get. I think that would be the case for most blokes who genuinely want to have a real and meaningful relationshp.

I agree with the comments about both parents parenting and that being the crux of McIntosh. I guess my gripe is I do believe there are cases (mine included) where the kids would be better off with dad. My ex isn't a terrible mum, but there are mental health issues amongst other reasons why I think the kids would be better off in my for the majority of the time. When I explained this to my solicitor she very politely informed me that the battle is for more than every second weekend, 50/50 is basically out of the question AND going to court to fight for primary carer status was insanity. She is right and it is wrong that she is right.... Discuss (Hey rannii I'm really keen on your thoughts.Looking forward to it)

I agree with the Disney lad dad syndrome. I've been guilty of it. In the early days after the separation I wanted every moment with me to be special. I missed my kids. I was not lavishing them with gifts but I would let them stay up a bit late etc. At that time in my life the time I spent with the kids was dictated to me by my ex. I was depressed and powerless. A horrible existence. The best way to remedy Dysney Dads is to let dads have more time. In my case I have 3 little cherribs who I have to have in the car by 7.55 am 3 times a fortnight for a 35min drive. No there isn't time for a toilet break and no we can't stop to watch the echidna cross the road I have to get to work. That means on the mornings when I have the kids I have to be up ealier. If the weather is bad I have to iron school uniform dry because the ex will not provide a replacement in the child school bag and I am sick to death of buying uniforms, don't get me started.


Your last comment was:
My view is, forget holidays. Split time into weekend/week days. Lets see how secondary parent goes with one weekend night first, then one weekend + weekday, and then slowly progress things like that. Enable secondary parent as much CARE as possible, as much RESPONSIBILTY as possible. See how the kids are coping, and the secondary parent and adjust from there to what works best for all parties.

I agree whole heartedly. BUT how to do that without solicitors and as is the case with me without it impacting on payments. The fact is I reckon my ex would be happy for me to have more time with the kids. SHE HATES ME, she hates that I don't pay her more child support, she just hates.... But she knows I'm a good dad (she hates that too) and she will not agree for me to have more time with the kids, even though she knows it will not be detrimental BUT the reason why it ain't gonna happen is it will impact on her hip pocket.

u'm guys, generally I try to be succint, but I needed a rant.
cheers
eamon

Edited by emca01 - 01/May/2014 at 15:26

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